Many Jains are strict vegans.

Humans absorb B12 through our stomach. We’re not ruminants.

Humans are still classed as great apes dude, google it. Also Richard Dawkins disagrees with you.

40% of people in the US are deficient in B12. You think that is a small number? I guess people should eat more factory farmed B12 supplemented meat and never mind the cardiovascular disease. Or maybe they should just take B12 themselves due to their unnatural environment?

Jainism isn’t vegan, they use dairy.

Herbivores absorb B12 via the large intestine. (humans can’t ).

Great Apes are not hominins and are separated by approx 14 million years of evolution ( common ancestor 7million years ago ). All Great Apes consume animal foods ( insects, molluscs, small reptiles and sometimes larger mammals ).

B12 deficiency in non vegans is mostly due to medical treatment of digestive tract disorders, most notably Proton pump inhibitors. B12 deficiency is extremely rare amongst healthy non vegans.

It’s pretty clear that nutritionists that say meat is essential are wrong. Because meat is filled with inflamitory compounds. Neu5Gc, TMAO, heme iron, saturated fat, it’s high in sulfur containing amino acids. Study after study show the benefits of eating plant based diets. You’d need to be blind to not see that pattern. Usually the first person somebody lies to is themselves when it comes to giving up luxuries, so people are generally happy to believe good things about their bad habits. The only people you can really trust is someone that loves meat, looks at the data and then gives it up for health reasons. That is someone whom is able to overcome their own bias.

Can you name a single chemical only found in meat that is essential for human nutrition?

Believe it or not, as someone from a naturopathic family I’m inclined to agree with a lot of what you say, however it baffles me as to why one highly qualified nutritionist considers animal foods as essential, yet another does not. Who’s right? Oh and by the way what’s cholesterol?

Without addressing every point, take a look at Jainism if you want evidence for long term strict veganism. B12 is in water and soil, abundant in natural environments. It can only be synthesized by bacteria and archaea. Ask yourself this question where do animals get B12 from? Human beings are animals, great apes to be precise. Unless you have forgotten. The need to supplement B12 is due to our modern unnatural living environment.

But B12 deficiency in vegans is a good talking point for those that don’t know why it’s an issue in the modern world. Here is the rub, B12 deficiency is an issue for omnivores too.

A few points and then we’ll call it a day.

No Plant Only society that has lived close to nature is known to me.

I know of no evidence that shows it is possible to obtain sufficient B12 from dirty water alone.

Spring and Glacial water contain few bacteria so would rule out societies,( of which there are many) that rely on these sources,

Jack Norris is a vegan dietician for whom I have a great deal of respect. Read his views on B12.

The view that the whole of humanity at any point in history relied on water for B12 is absurd.

As I’ve mentioned to you before, uncontaminated spring water in glass bottles is freely available so cut out the supplements and give it a try.

Matt I don’t have a problem with people who don’t use animal products, in fact it would suit my purposes if there were more. It’s modern veganism ( a belief system ) and some of the absurd claims being made that makes me angry.

Not true at all. Doctors and dietitians give advice to people based on culture, religion, tradition, their own personal bias, and also what they believe people are capable of doing. Most doctors have close to zero nutritional training. But they are trained to write scripts for pharmaceuticals. If you want to understand what the optimal diet is you need to take it back to first principles. That’s where nutrition science comes in.

When a doctor says that it’s okay to eat a little meat that is not the same as saying that meat is healthy. It’s because the doctor either doesn’t have a fundamental grasp on nutrition, or he/she believes through their own experience that their patients are incapable of quitting meat altogether. So they say: “It’s okay to eat red meat once in a while.” While at the same time prescribing you a pill to lower your cholesterol.

Doctors and dieticians are only going to give advice based on nutrition and health. The only societal advice they are likely to give is “Don’t eat garlic if you’re going on a date”

When doctors tell people that it’s okay to eat a little meat, that is not for medical but societal reasons.

Exactly, humans that live close to the land drinking fresh water on a natural plant based diet have no need to supplement B12. The only reason we need to do so is due to us living in an unnatural environment. It is not from lack of meat eating which is often the reason touted in the press.